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Hamid Taqvaee: The Worker-communist Party of Iran (WPI) does not fundamentally accept the capitalist system and is striving to do away with it. The Islamic Republic represents an extremely backward, reactionary and savage variety of this system but we have had other dictatorial systems in contemporary Iranian history which have been forms of capitalist rule. Both politically and economically, our party does not recognize these systems; it sees them as inhuman and exploitative. It believe that fundamental freedoms and human liberation are not possible in such a system and it is for this reason that the WPI wants to turn this system right side up and replace it with a socialist system i.e. a system in which the real needs and interests of human beings are the aim of production and not profit making and the interests of a tiny section of society. At the most basic level, this is the WPI's aim and objective, i.e. the establishment of a socialist society in Iran in which human freedom, dignity, demands and needs are the ultimate objective of economics and the state and not capitalist profit-making. Ali Javadi: If the WPI takes power and a Socialist Republic is established in Iran, how will society and life in the Socialist Republic be? Hamid Taqvaee: The Socialist Republic of Iran will be a human, free and open system. It will be a system in which there will be no sign of class conflict; societal divisions that are based on the one hand, a tiny section with a mountain of wealth and on the other, a vast majority who live in poverty, will be eradicated. The objective of production will be to meet people's needs. As soon as it is established and as a first step, the Socialist Republic will provide the basic needs of all, such as health care, education, housing, electricity, water, transportation and other public services for free. Also, the youth, women and vast sections of society who have especially over the last quarter of a century been denied their most basic rights under the Islamic Republic, will enjoy a life free from inequality and discrimination. The Socialist Republic will open its borders and freely and unconditionally allow everyone to come to Iran, both those who want to live in Iran or those who just want to visit, so they can see for themselves what a socialist society is like. Socialism in Iran will present a modern, progressive and human system and will be an example for the world and international public opinion. It will show that when capital's fetters are removed from society, human beings can organise a free and equal society by relying on their own conscious power and will. Ali Javadi: In opposition to you, it's said that communism has been defeated and you are pursuing a defeated project. What is your response? Hamid Taqvaee: This is a type of criticism and political attack against communists. Those who say communism has been defeated are often the states and propaganda organs that have themselves been party to defeating communism, and or in fact a capitalist system that was presented as communism. What took place in the Soviet Union and the Eastern bloc had nothing to do with communism and socialism and was a state capitalist model, which Cold War propaganda organs were keen to knock down as communism. This is while they also knew that the 'totalitarian' system under attack was in fact a form of state capitalism. It was a system in which everything was concentrated in the hands of the state. The communism that we are talking about is fundamentally different from this kind of communism since people organised in councils form the basis of the socialist state; this is the complete opposite point of departure from state capitalism. One must first ask the person who questions the viability of socialism because of the Russian experience or any other reason, whether they fundamentally see socialism as desirable and a human system that is important to fight for and establish. If this is so, then proving that this task is achievable will not be difficult since communism is nothing but producing to meet society's needs so that human beings can live free, liberated, equal and prosperous. It has been a long time since the conditions for such production have been available, i.e. more than ever before, there are vast resources of raw materials, advanced enough production technology, and a prepared and young labour force in a society of 70 million. Therefore there is nothing to stop you in Iranian society from producing enough for all to live in prosperity. The propaganda that 'the Soviet Union was communist and defeated' and such are mostly churned out by organs, institutes and states that themselves in reality have more fundamental issues with communism because communism endangers their interests. Workers and the mass of working people that have no interest in capitalist exploitation have no such problem with communism. Ali Javadi: What would you say to someone who accepts that socialism is a human ideal but believes that it's not practical, that we must go forward gradually and step by step, that the conditions don't exist for it, or that it can't happen so quickly? Hamid Taqvaee: No transformation in history has taken place little by little and step by step. It is possible to bring about small changes and reforms in current circumstances, and that too only if conditions are present; in Iran even these conditions are not available and as we have seen, reform and change are impossible in the Islamic Republic of Iran. But even where reform is possible, these will be gradual changes within the given framework of the existing system, while we are talking about a fundamental transformation - smashing the foundations of the capitalist system and establishing a completely different society. All such transformations in history have always taken place at once and rapidly. For example, when the capitalist system replaced the feudal system, a series of revolutions took place. None of the feudal systems or the monarchs or courts gave up their power to the capitalist class gradually. There was a revolution against the old system in France, Germany and England; in Iran too we had the constitutional revolution and likewise in many other countries. In any country and situation, if you want to take political power from the exploiting class, it is impossible to do so gradually. I think that those who advocate the gradual approach do so because they have accepted the framework of the existing system and at most see changes within this system as sufficient. Appearance-wise they accept socialism and human aims but in fact the practical way that they suggest is to maintain this very existing system. Ali Javadi: What is your response to those who say human nature is competitive and self-interested and that what you are saying is primarily at odds with human nature? Hamid Taqvaee: The first point to be raised is whether those people are certain that there is such a thing as human nature. Or are they looking at human beings in contemporary society and generalising their own and their generation's experience? I do not think it is necessary to enter the debate on humane nature. I don't know the nature of the abstract human being who does not belong to any society. Let's leave the question of human nature to philosophy and talk about real human beings - real human beings who have been born and raised in contemporary societies that are all capitalist. It is obvious that people in this system will see each other as competitors. In capitalism, competition plays a central role since you must step on the throats of others and competitively drive them out in order to survive and secure your life and your family's. This cannot be associated with human nature. It's exactly like your throwing two people like the Roman gladiators at each other and telling them to 'kill or be killed', and then saying: 'you see human beings murder each other and to kill one's own is human nature.' This is as hollow as seeing human beings in competition in capitalist society and concluding that competition is inherent in human nature. No. When you hold human survival and their daily subsistence hostage and force them to step on others to move up, it is clear that competition and individual self-interest will be created. This is capitalist nature that creates such a situation and not human nature. It is for this reason that we say as long as capitalism exists, humanity will not be free and liberated. In the socialist system, the necessity of competition will be eradicated and competition will be replaced with cooperation, mutual support and love of humankind. Ali Javadi: What do you say to opponents who in criticising socialism and the Socialist Republic, argue that communists want merely to divide poverty? Hamid Taqvaee: If we assume that society does not produce enough for everyone's prosperity and generally is in difficulty, then there can be some scope to this statement, but with today's available level of production and particularly in a society like Iran, I do not think that this statement has any meaning. Just take into account the existing available wealth - all the huge monies that the Islamic Republic spends on its oppressive forces such as the Komitehs, Pasdaran, plain-clothed agents, army, police, prisons and so on, to the huge amounts of cash lying in private bank accounts of the ruling mullahs, to the incredible expenditures on mosques and shrines and the huge machinery for spreading religious superstition propaganda in society. When one takes all these into account, you see that we are not talking about a poor society. And bear in mind that this is in a situation that the production level in Iran is pitiable. In this very situation, you have mountains of wealth stockpiled in the hands of the state and a small minority of society. The first step after the overthrow of the Islamic Republic is to spend this huge wealth for public welfare. However, the main debate is not about existing wealth, but about the possibility of mass production of wealth in Socialist Iran. Under any system, production means using labour power to turn raw materials and resources into products to satisfy human needs. As I mentioned earlier, vast production and raw material resources, production technology (of which the most advanced technologies and production processes available in the world could be used in Iran) and the labour force in a young 70 million population, ready conditions for satisfying the needs of everyone in the Socialist Republic of Iran. The only problem and obstacle is the capitalist relations; if you smash these relations, then there will be no worries about dividing poverty between people. Those massive sections of the people who are living under the poverty line do not essentially have these reservations. The above is
a translation of an interview conducted in Persian by Ali
Javadi on his TV programme, For a Better World; it was printed
in International Weekly, number 124 dated 20 September 2002.
Translators: Maryam Namazie and Fariborz Pooya.
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